Stephen Schwartz on the Two New ‘Wicked’ Songs and Spinoff Prospects

What an extended, unusual bubble trip it’s been. However the work of songwriter Stephen Schwartz on “Depraved” — the property he first found as a supply novel and has led into Broadway and twin movie iterations — has lastly come to an in depth. (Or has it? Extra on his emotions about spinoffs momentarily.) He didn’t coast to the end line, having give you two new songs for “Wicked: For Good,” the Elphaba-sung “No Place Like Dwelling” and Glinda’s “The Woman within the Bubble,” to make the second movie within the two-parter not less than as emotionally and thematically holistic as the primary.

In a dialog with Selection after the brand new movie got here out of the gate with a $147 million opening weekend on the home field workplace (and $223 million globally), Schwartz mentioned that he’s nonetheless “cautiously” ready for a ultimate verdict on whether or not followers just like the inevitably darker conclusion to the story as a lot as its wildly popu-luhr predecessor. However after greater than a quarter-century of shepherding the franchise, he’s personally happy that “the 2 films collectively, simply speaking from the viewpoint of cinematic accomplishment, are a rare achievement on the a part of Jon Chu.” And though there have been ambiguous alerts about whether or not the workforce believes there may be additional artistic gasoline within the “Depraved” tank, in the event you learn by means of to the tip of our interview, you’ll discover that Schwartz is prepared to say he believes his work right here might not be executed.

Earlier than shifting on to the longer term, anyway, a lot of our dialog centered on simply how a lot the songs of “Depraved” — the historic track rating, however particularly the 2 new ones he wrote for Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande — converse to America’s and the broader world’s unsure current. (The next interview has been edited for size and readability.)

Is it truthful to think about you’re taking pleasure, if not some sort of vindication, in “Depraved: For Good” opening even larger than the primary film?

Effectively, sequels are inclined to open larger than the originals, if the originals have been profitable. I imply, it’s not likely a sequel, it’s a continuation. However yeah, that’s not unusual. In the event you hear any hesitance in what I’m saying, I used to be fairly assured that the film would do very properly when it first opened, and naturally it’s exceeded expectations. And I believe it’s a extremely good film and my understanding is that persons are liking it. However I’m nonetheless ready to see the way it holds up — if the phrase of mouth is sweet, and people who find themselves seeing it are telling their buddies to go see it, and people who find themselves seeing it determine they’d wish to see it once more, as they did with the primary film. We want a bit little bit of time to determine that. So I’m nonetheless being cautious, to be trustworthy.

All proper — you’ve had expertise in being sensible about not being rash in assuming success.

It’s my nature through the years.

Let’s begin by speaking in regards to the two new songs. Actually with the stage manufacturing, there was a lot thought that went into what you possibly can and couldn’t get right into a second act that’s inevitably shorter than the primary…

Precisely.

While you have been writing these new songs, did they arrive in comparable locations to the place you have been already pondering again within the ‘90s or early 2000s, “It might be nice to have this beat lined”? Or did you sort of begin from scratch, in pondering the place these songs ought to go?

Completely began from scratch. We truly have been not likely ever pondering of those songs —these beats — after we have been doing the present initially. The entire sequence of “No Place Like Dwelling” is one thing that we may by no means have executed on stage anyway, as a result of it entails all these animals, and we solely have one little animal in our present [the goat professor]. All the opposite animals have been conveniently off stage.

I do assume that if we hadn’t had time limitations, we’d have come to the purpose of fascinated by “The Woman within the Bubble,” as a result of that crucial turning level for the character of Glinda does exist within the present; it simply occurs off-stage. However due to the time constraints and the way issues develop whenever you’re doing a present, it actually by no means occurred to us. It definitely didn’t happen to me. The truth is, Kristin (Chenoweth, who first performed Glinda on stage) stored asking: Couldn’t she have one other track later within the second act? We have been taking a look at locations the place she would possibly be capable of, and finally determined in opposition to it. However oddly sufficient, this was not one of many locations that we considered.

Folks typically speak in regards to the stability between the 2 leads. With a brand new track for every main girl now, that helps hold them equally balanced right here. Though “lead” is within the eye of the beholder. As a result of we all know that Ariana is being campaigned for supporting actress, and we’re pondering: In no sensible world is Glinda a supporting function. However we perceive why they need to do these issues.

You’re precisely proper. I imply, the logic behind these kind of characterizations typically elude me. However , that’s less than us, to find out how they’re characterised.

Many individuals have mentioned that by way of the journey the characters take or the epiphanies they arrive to, the primary half is a bit bit extra Elphaba’s, after which they’re shocked that the second movie appears to be extra Glinda’s journey.

Effectively, this was fairly aware on our components — and by “our,” I imply myself, (co-screenwriters) Winnie Holzman and Dana Fox, (director) Jon Chu and (producer) Marc Platt, who have been the group that spent infinite hours on Zoom determining the construction of the 2 movies. And it did come up fairly consciously, as we have been discussing it, that primarily the primary movie was Elphaba’s story arc by way of her changing into on the finish of the movie who she really is. Then, after all, she has numerous motion within the second movie, however she doesn’t evolve as a personality by way of… Effectively, that’s not fairly true. She does a bit bit, when, in “No Good Deed,” she involves sure realizations. However she’s nonetheless the Depraved Witch of the West, if what I imply. Within the first movie, she begins out as a schoolgirl eager to do good and have all of Oz love her, and on the finish of the movie, she embraces her identification because the Depraved Witch.

The second movie, we realized, is Glinda’s. She’s the one who has the massive turning level. She’s the one who begins in a sure place, as a result of she’s unable to alter within the first movie, after which finally involves the purpose the place she feels she has to — and she or he does. So, yeah, it is a long-winded approach of solidifying what you mentioned: that we have been fairly aware that the bigger story arc by way of character growth within the second movie was Glinda’s. And that’s why we felt a track at that turning level was essential for the storytelling.

You may not just like the time period “message songs,” however in a approach, these do look like quote-unquote message songs, whether or not you’re writing them strictly with the movie in thoughts or not. When Elphaba sings “No Place Like Dwelling,” I used to be watching it for the primary time and practically gasped, sort of pondering earlier than the primary verse was over, “Oh my God, it is a track about America.”

After all. Yeah. Or certainly, for anybody who’s dwelling in a rustic that they love that’s altering. I believe everyone throughout the ideological and political spectrum who lives in America would agree that we aren’t dwelling in the identical nation we have been dwelling in 10 years in the past. Possibly you prefer it higher; possibly you assume it’s not a great growth. However nobody may really feel like nothing has modified, as a result of it’s a wholly completely different nation. And so, if you’re somebody who feels that it hasn’t gone in the precise route, what do you do about it? What’s your accountability as a person citizen of the nation, significantly when it’s more and more harmful to withstand? How a lot braveness do you want? Or do you simply really feel it’s any person else’s accountability?

I believe these questions are in everyone’s thoughts. However we’re not the one nation on the earth that’s present process a substantial change. You recognize, Hungary is definitely not the nation that it was pre-Viktor Orbán… and many others. So I really feel it has ramifications past America. However I stay in America, and so clearly I used to be writing from that viewpoint.

I imply, I write from the viewpoint of a personality. However that is positively a personality who’s wrestling with the truth that the nation that she loves and lives in — the land that she loves and lives in — has, from her viewpoint, devolved, and that she feels that she desires to attempt to assist change that, and assist carry it again to the nation, the land, that she feels it could possibly and ought to be.

It may be very shifting to listen to that. Even with animated animals circling round.

Effectively, the good factor about with the ability to write about Oz is that you’ve got this charming world, even at its worst. And but you possibly can cope with points that pertain as properly to our world.

After which when Glinda sings “The Woman within the Bubble,” it so suits in with the film’s themes of “I’ve been fooled” or “I’ve been kidding myself,” and but it comes off as a really candy track. We’ve talked earlier than about your realization that there was an viewers for younger ladies for the stage musical that you just didn’t even take into consideration when the present was being created. Now you’re very conscious of it, do you consider how younger ladies or girls will obtain a track of enlightened disillusionment like that?

No, to be trustworthy, I used to be not fascinated by the viewers per se by way of both of the songs. However definitely by way of “Woman within the Bubble,” I do really feel that, once more, it’s a second of braveness for Glinda, as a result of it could be very straightforward for her to proceed to stay on this metaphorical bubble the place life is straightforward for her and the place she will get to drift above all of the turmoil and shut out the issues which are disturbing. However she has an inside goodness that even she doesn’t fairly know is there, however it won’t enable her to do this anymore. So she makes a brave selection to surrender the privilege that she has.

It’s not fully dissimilar to what we have been simply speaking about with “No Place Like Dwelling.” In case you are dwelling in a spot that you just really feel goes within the improper route, however you your self are completely snug and protected, what do you do? Do you simply keep snug and protected, or do you danger that so as to attempt to make a distinction for the land, for the nation? I believe each songs are considerably reverse sides of the identical coin.

To speak usually about fleshing out the second act for the second film… It feels to me like there are advantages to the second act because it stands within the musical, although it’s sort of rushed. That hurry sort of works in feeling such as you’re speeding towards tragedy and unhealthy issues occurring, so possibly there’s one thing to be mentioned for that momentum. However then then increasing the size right here for all that motion to happen, there are completely different sorts of emotional beats that you want to have, as a result of it’s its personal separate film and also you didn’t simply get a few of these sitting by means of act one…

Precisely.

So having extra comedy or extra ballads makes it really feel extra holistic. However did you’re feeling initially the second act on stage was rushed, or did it appear excellent on the time?

I want the second act within the present may have been longer. There have been sequences that I want to have seen, and that at one level have been there, after which the truth of how lengthy a present might be began to make its its presence identified after we have been truly performing and the curtain was coming down approach too late. However I occur to be a fan of exhibits which are, like, 4 hours lengthy. So I’d have been delighted to have extra time. However I do really feel that what we got here up with for the second act of the Broadway present works properly.

The one factor we do within the film that I want we had considered for the present is the inclusion of Glinda in “Great.” I believe it truly helps that sequence quite a bit, and it simply by no means occurred to us. After we have been engaged on the film, as a result of it was its personal film, it turned clear as we have been wanting on the occasions of the second act as they happen within the present that it was too lengthy a time the place Glinda and Elphaba, who’re the central relationship of the story, aren’t truly in the identical place on the identical time. It’s OK within the second act of the musical, for a lot of causes, however in a complete separate film, that was not OK. So we had to determine, properly, the place may they get collectively earlier? Then the concept got here up: when Elphaba goes again to the Emerald Metropolis, she may truly engage with Glinda, as an alternative of simply seeing Glinda from afar after which interacting with the Wizard. I do really feel it’s higher, and possibly if we considered it, we’d’ve executed it within the present.

It is sensible, as a result of Elphaba is sort of backsliding, reconsidering the trail she’s taken. Possibly that’s extra sensible if she’s acquired her buddy Glinda there egging her on.

It’s rather more persuasive. And within the film Glinda makes a extremely good case, I believe, for why Elphaba ought to be part of them fairly than sustain what is seemingly futile resistance.

Are you able to speak about different present songs that acquired fleshed out, and the way a lot extra materials you wrote for the second half?

The primary film, kind of, is the primary act of the present, besides the “Emerald Metropolis” sequence acquired prolonged and fleshed out with seeing the Wizard’s propaganda. However the second film has numerous new materials in it, not simply within the screenplay, however within the music as properly. I’ve simply cited “Great” and the 2 new songs; that’s the place many of the new materials comes. Nevertheless it’s fairly a bit, truly. The opening sequence, which is sort of in depth, has plenty of new stuff in it. We’re seeing what Elphaba has been doing all this time; we’re seeing the place Glinda has come to. The opening quantity is significantly completely different than within the present. Oh, and the scene the place Elphaba goes to see her sister. I’m not gonna inform an excessive amount of about what occurs there — as a result of, spoilers — however that additionally has new music in it.

It’s fairly completely different firstly. On stage, Glinda is singing “Couldn’t Be Happier” virtually on the very high of Act 2, whereas it takes about quarter-hour to get to that second within the film.

Precisely. [In the stage show] there’s a really transient reprise of “Each Day Extra Depraved,” which can also be within the film, after which we go proper to “I Couldn’t Be Happier.” There’s an awesome deal extra that occurs within the film earlier than we get to that time.

Let’s speak about this film’s title track, “For Good.” When individuals who have been possibly a bit bit cynical about this film’s field workplace in comparison with the primary one have been speaking a number of months in the past, there was some speak alongside the traces of, “Effectively, it doesn’t have a ‘Defying Gravity.’ So possibly that limits its prospects.” But hardcore followers of the present would say “For Good” is simply as impactful, even with out the battle cry.

Effectively, it’s impactful differently. I imply, I do assume that that final 10 minutes of the primary film, with the way in which Jon Chu created the “Defying Gravity” sequence, is just about as thrilling as musical films get, or possibly any films can get. It’s true, we have been by no means going to have that. Though there are a few very cool motion sequences on this film that I didn’t… I imply, I knew they have been there as a result of they have been within the screenplay, however I didn’t know they have been going to be fairly as cool and as within the superhero film kind of type as they’re. There’s loads of motion, I’m saying. Nevertheless it doesn’t finish in an motion sequence. It ends with the beating coronary heart of the film, and of this relationship. That’s a distinct sort of affect.

For individuals who revere that track, it has a profound affect inside seconds. Individuals who understand it begin crying earlier than greater than a pair traces have been sung, with this sense reminiscence of how emotional it’s going to turn into over the subsequent 5 minutes or so. What’s the legacy of that track, even outdoors of the present? It’s been made to suit every thing from graduations to funerals.

Effectively, certainly it appears to be making an look at many ceremonies, like these you cited, or a beloved instructor retiring, and many others. Most of it appears to have the ability to translate. I imply, there are some particular issues in it which don’t make sense in the event you left the film out, the place they say sorry and all that. However, yeah, in writing it initially, I simply wished to discover a strategy to categorical primarily these two individuals who love one another having to say goodbye and making an attempt to inform the opposite one what she has meant, the affect that she’s had.

I’ve talked continuously about how the track acquired to be written, and I can speak about it once more with you. It acquired written out of speaking about an actual relationship, which was a relationship my daughter has with a longtime buddy of hers. She talked to me about: if she may solely have one time to inform this buddy what she’s meant to her, what would she say? Numerous what’s within the track got here out of that dialog I had with my daughter, Jessica. So I believe there’s an inherent reality to it that by some means then gave it a resonance for the viewers.

There are different inspirational songs about friendship, like “Wind Beneath My Wings,” however one thing that’s interesting to some individuals about this one is simply overtly it acknowledges powerful occasions, and that the chums would possibly even have screwed one another over… it’s not simply sunshine and roses prompting the tears.

And that’s long-term friendships. That tends to be true. In the event that they’re actual friendships, they’ll have some bumpy patches alongside the way in which.

You’ve mentioned, typically, that you just’re not at all times a critics’ favourite. I’m a critic, and I contend “Depraved” is among the many biggest musicals ever written…

Thanks. Not all of the New York critics agreed with you. Let me simply put it that approach.

So we’re not all immune. However these 2003 opinions dismissing it are there, to be regarded up. And it’s not as if everybody has fully come round to embrace the flicks, though extra critics get it now. However there’s a gulf going again 22 years, the place the individuals who’ve like it take a look at those who don’t look and say: Why don’t you see this?

I’ve a principle, as a result of these persons are not idiots, frankly. You recognize, lots of the critics who didn’t get the present when it first got here out… I do assume that critics can mistake dimension and spectacle for lack of substance — that in the event that they see a present that has numerous spectacle to it and visceral viewers pleasure about sure issues, it could possibly really feel lighter-weight by way of its content material than a smaller, extra clearly considerate present. And I believe they’ll miss the truth that there’s a seriousness of goal to a present like “Depraved,” too. I do assume a number of the critics got here in and noticed the spectacle and didn’t actually discover that we have been making an attempt to inform a fairly considerate story.

Growing the present initially, did you ever get caught and marvel in the event you have been biting off greater than you possibly can chew? There’s themes of affection, and of friendship, after which there’s political satire — it addresses numerous life expertise. On paper it must have been onerous to work all that right into a single piece.

It wasn’t a lot the completely different content material by way of the non-public story and the bigger social story, or political story, if you’ll. The tougher half is, there’s simply numerous plot. Musicals actually don’t are inclined to have that a lot plot, the place so many issues occur. We stored making an attempt to remove issues, and a few of it we may, however a few of it, we simply couldn’t, and we had to determine a strategy to inform it effectively to get all these occasions and all these characters in. That was difficult. The truth that it was at all times gonna be each a private story and a political story — that comes with the title. As quickly as you’ve that title, that’s what it’s gonna be.

Engaged on these films as you’ve, after which having your new Broadway present, “The Queen of Versailles” [which stars Chenoweth], in growth and eventually reaching the stage on the identical time, was {that a} problem to stability these issues?

After all, sure. However that’s simply how the timing labored out. Clearly there is a bonus to with the ability to break up your focus, so I acquired to be extraordinarily good at compartmentalization.

How are you feeling about that now? There have been some powerful opinions, however then the New York Occasions gave it an awesome one.

Clearly we’re very glad about that [the New York Times]. You recognize, it’s very political, the present, in its social satire. I believe there may be some misunderstanding on the market about what the present is, as a result of I imply, it’s kind of much like what we have been simply speaking about. Simply as you possibly can misunderstand “Depraved” by means of the spectacle, I believe you possibly can misunderstand “Queen of Versailles” as a result of it’s humorous, and there’s numerous kind of lighter satire. Nevertheless it actually is an try to have a look at what’s happening in our tradition proper now, and the ramifications of that. [This interview was conducted before it was announced “Queen of Versailles” will close in January, two months after its official opening night.]

Within the new film, “No Place Like Dwelling” feels prefer it written for 2025, and also you’ve acknowledged it as being one thing you wouldn’t essentially have written 10 or extra years in the past. However the present feels very topical to individuals usually.

Actually, yeah. I want it have been much less related. What can I let you know? I want by the point the film got here out, individuals would say like, “Oh yeah, keep in mind when that was happening in our world?” However sadly, that’s not the case.

It doesn’t date. The one factor that possibly is so tied to its time, or earlier, is in “Widespread,” when Glinda makes that Reagan joke, about “even Nice Communicators…” By now, in all probability many of the viewers is just too younger to get that reference.

Positive. However the individuals who understand it understand it.

I wrote an article again in 2011, interviewing you and Platt and a few others, about how “Depraved” had already turn into a serious cultural touchstone… and naturally anticipating when the film would lastly get made, which it was first envisioned as. There was each indication on the time that it was would possibly nonetheless be a number of years earlier than it occurred. Actually there may have been alternatives alongside the way in which to get it improper, however everybody thought it was well worth the delayed gratification, to stay the touchdown.

I imply, precisely. We did take numerous care with it. Frankly, there have been, as we have been creating it, some improper roads or cul-de-sacs that we discovered ourselves in. I’ve numerous gratitude to not simply Marc Platt however Common as an organization that they by no means pushed us to get it out till we felt we had it proper. And so they may have. They’re a film firm, in spite of everything [which helped produce the Broadway show, with hopes of a film translation]. And so they have been very affected person and waited a very long time whereas we have been saying, “We haven’t solved this but.” So right here’s a second for me to say thanks to them.

Lastly, with all of the Depraved-mania proper now, everyone desires to ask in regards to the risk for sequels, prequels or facet roads.

I believe that there’ll… there may be… I don’t know. I’m making an attempt to assume what I’m allowed to say. However let me simply say, I believe {that a} spinoff just isn’t out of the query. Let me put it that approach. Oz is a really wealthy territory. There are numerous tales there, and potential tales. L. Frank Baum wrote many different odd tales beside that first ebook. So I believe there could also be another visits to Oz sooner or later, and I’d even be taking part in one in all them.

You sound surprisingly open to that.

Yeah. Yeah.